[The interview took place on 22 February 2002, in the Cafeteria of the Tate St Ives, Cornwall, before the opening of the gallery for the day]

LU: Susan, you are the Education Officer of the Tate St Ives.

SL: That’s correct.

LU: In that capacity and to whatever extent personally, we’ll find out, you knew Alaric Sumner. In what circumstances, how did you first come across him, what was it like?

SL: Well, here we are sitting in the café / restaurant of the Tate St Ives and that was the place of my very first meeting with Alaric. Our then curator, Mike Tooby had, by chance, come upon Alaric one day in the café as he was working on Waves on Porthmeor [Beach]. He was writing in the corner. He often came into the restaurant and just spent time. Obviously, given the location of this extraordinary space, it was ideal.

At that point, we were working on an exhibition which was called Porthmeor Beach: A Century of Images - that was one of the first exhibitions I worked on here in the gallery - and I was quite interested in the relationship between the historical work we were going to show and contemporary work. It seemed like an obvious exhibition for Tate St Ives to do. Given where we are, on Porthmeor Beach.

So we had been discussing ideas about the selection of work and Mike had said: “I think it might be quite interesting in terms of looking at how we present the work and how we make interesting relationships between the historic collection and new work to talk to someone who is actually now working and living in St Ives and actually responding to the location that we are talking about that artists have for centuries focused on.” So Mike suggested that we have a coffee here in the restaurant and Alaric talk about the work that he was involved in at that time

Now, you can imagine, very often in St Ives, the phenomenon is: you suddenly meet somebody who has an extraordinary creativity and things spark off. So here we were, the three of us sitting here, but what began as an interesting meeting turned into something which went way beyond the actual discussion about an education programme for the exhibition; and what we began to talk about was how evocative Alaric’s words were and how we were keen to make a relationship in terms of the words and the images in the gallery; and he was very excited about the potential relationship there. So, as we sat there, Alaric said he would give us some of the work to take away and read through properly; and we arranged another meeting. By that point, we got really excited looking at the images that were coming into the exhibition and then looking at the potential of having Alaric’s words on the exhibition wall so that as you looked at the image there was a really strong affinity between the image and the words and the space. I think, speaking to Alaric, he was very excited about the way his work was being seen in a very different context. Somehow the versatility of the work, which stands on its own in book form, could also translate into an exhibition. So that was really the starting point.

LU: At that stage the book was just written text, wasn’t it? and it was later that Sandra Blow came into it.

SL: Yes, that’s right… Well, things moved on from there. It’s a long time ago, but the things that we did then are still relevant in our programme because they have shaped what we do now.

One of the things that I came to the gallery with was an interest in exploring, through the public programme and the schools programme, relationships with other art forms. The traditions of St Ives had always been a plurality in terms of crossing boundaries; and I was very interested in that; it was one of the things that had attracted me to come to this job. So the opportunity to work with a writer was very exciting.

We used to sit down and try to define how he felt he could then contribute to the programme as well as having the work in the gallery. Both of us benefited from that, I think, because in terms of professional development it was the first time that I had worked with someone in that way in terms of just responding not just to the exhibition but whose work was implicit in the exhibition, but in a concrete way.

Alaric was really up front about his anxieties and his lack of… not confidence, because he was incredibly confident; but in terms of his working experience, particularly with school children and students, and he could translate and communicate his thinking through teaching.

We sat down to devise ways in which we felt we could test ideas, maybe structures that we hadn’t really explored before, and working with groups that he might also get something out of so there would be a reciprocal creative opportunity, rather than seeing it as delivering education. At that time, we were putting in an application for funding to our private sponsor, Northcliffe Newspapers, which has an education wing which supports the development of language activity; and they were very excited about our relationship with Alaric. We were very successful with our application.

I think the funding came through the ideas. They were strong ideas. Northcliffe gave us funding to develop a project over two years so that Alaric could be involved in a project over a long period. That was what we had always wanted.

So starting from that exhibition, he was our first writer in residence. It didn’t mean that he was in the gallery for two years, but that he had a relationship which went beyond one project. That was the first time we had tried to sustain something like that or sustain a relationship with groups in a variety of language activities.

LU: So what sort of thing did he do with schools?

SL: They were all sessions within gallery spaces. It was relating to the works on the wall, which began with Porthmeor Beach: A Century of Images but developed into other areas of work. Initially he worked with some of our education staff on strategies for approaching works of art. I think he got a huge amount of that.

Our trade is words, in terms of bringing the paintings to life; or, in a way, just trying to engage people in the work. That's what's it about. And, I think, for Alaric, that was really interesting. Clearly he had a strong interest anyway in visual art and its relationship to his work; but, in a concrete way, it gave him a kind of insight into a different way of thinking, maybe, about what we were doing in education; and a way of maybe formalising some of his ideas as well in terms of communicating and working with groups to create new work.

A lot of the sessions began by looking at the work; then developed into language sessions: thinking about words to describe on a very simple basis, and then developing them into poems. Where I felt Alaric offered something quite unique was that his approach was also to think very strongly about the sounds of words, not just the presentation but the performance of words. We had of responding to the paintings in situ very much using voice; it became beyond just the words; it became a whole performance.

He became very tuned into the building. I remember him working with a group of deaf children, and this is a group he worked with a couple of times, just standing in the loggia. He said a few lines from a poem and what fascinated him, he said, was that he could feel it in his feet. It has that effect, that big shell of a space.

The deaf children were the ones who really got to grips with that.

We were looking at the range of ways, using the skills that we've got, in which we could work best with them; and make this place relevant to them; and how to get an understanding of how they see the world anyway before you can start to get into looking at visual art. It was a revelation for me because I had never worked with profoundly deaf children before. Neither had Alaric at that point.

For me, it was interesting in terms of how working with other specialists can enhance and develop certain strands... and sometimes the unexpected is where the really fantastic thing lies. That was quite unexpected.

I got the impression that Alaric was excited about this whole new world of working with such groups and that it fed back into the development of his own work, offering lots of things that he could experiment with.

LU: What other kinds of activity did he undertake?

SL: He was also involved in our public programme. The thing about being able to work with someone over a period of time is that you do develop different projects for different audience strands.

The formal education work came out of our ambition to develop language and that kind of response to the work through the funding that we had. So we were able to continue with Alaric. He would work in a variety of sessions with certain groups over a period of time.

The other strand, in terms of our public programme, would be performance within the gallery space; and, in that, there were two fairly significant moments.

He of course did a piece which was a work in progress with Rory McDermott.

LU: The Unspeakable Rooms.

SL: Yes. That was a key fixture. That was the first time we had built that into the programme. For Mike, as curator, he saw it as not just an event in a programme. This is where the synergy between the curator and my role comes in. I think for Mike it was a pretty brave step. Alaric had talked about this work that he was developing and had managed to secure funding to take it further. He was very keen to show his progress.

It couldn't have happened anywhere else because the work was very much about that relationship to space and his affinity with and know ledge and experiences of this building. So Mike agreed that it should go into the programme and that we would have this showcase of a work in progress and also the final performance. And that took place in Gallery 4.

It is the only performance work that we have actually presented here in the gallery. It's not an area that we have developed. That was Mike beginning and the gallery has an ambition to develop it further.

LU: You also did Conversation in Colour here.

SL: Yes. That was later.

LU: 1996.

SL: It was very experimental in terms of how we were using the building and that relationship between the work and the acoustic of the space; using the whole building as an instrument. And we have learnt from those experiences. It has given us confidence in how we work with other specialists in this building.

For example, we have a very strong music strand in the programme which we have developed since that period because we have realised there is tremendous opportunity there.

I suppose for the Tate programme and Mike taking a chance, I suppose they were quite subversive to a degree. And that was a good thing. Mike was very keen that we also bring in and showcase the work of people living and working in Cornwall that is on an international platform and needs to be presented. Because we are here, many of those developed relationships happen, because this building is a focal point. An essential focal point. I don't think there's anywhere quite like this building for artists and writers who are down here. So maybe it's very much bound up with the history of Tate St Ives as a force for creativity. Looking back now, it was first steps but very important first steps.

LU: Coming back, if I may, to the work with children, what he did he do with them in a performative sense?

SL: I shadowed a number of sessions and we did discuss the structure of particular workshop sessions... In terms of language activities, the starting points were often beginning to talk with students what he did. He would perhaps read something that he had written. With Porthmeor Beach: A Century of Images, what he tried to focus on was to get the students to consider images and words and not look at them as separate entities; but to look at the relationship between the two. With the deaf children, in the initial session, he worked with a print maker, so it wasn't just seen as a writer isolated. Naomi Freers was involved at that point.

Alaric explored that space between image and word, in a formal way, looking at structure, the resonance of words, the rhythm, the harmony; and making relationships back to the image; and just getting them to think about words in a different way. It was very accessible. The great thing that Alaric was able to bring to that, once he became more confident in the space, was his ability to enthuse. Just thinking about him standing in front of the works in Gallery 4. He was compelling to watch. Primary and Secondary students were mesmerised in terms of how he would do it. He was quite an intense person. He'd be a very different person in terms of their own experience.

If he was looking at a work, he might suggest a word and then get them to follow that through; so that, instead of providing a narrative from the painting, there would be word association; and then there'd be a sound association where you would talk about the sound of a painting. And then instead of a sound, how about putting together a series of sounds. Where does that take you?

Some of that did evolve in his relationships with the groups and with the work. Some of it came from discussions about what we were trying to get to. He said "I am keen to work with print maker. I am keen to work with an artist and see what we come up with as a double act."

In terms of language, over the period of time, we managed to cover quite a lot in terms of different approaches. There's endless things that could have gone on with different writers; but it's recognising the uniqueness of the person you're working with.

Alaric was passionate about the works themselves and had a very close understanding of St Ives' history and Modernism and was fascinated by it. He and Mike had long curatorial conversations. That helped. He and Mike on that academic plane found a meeting point. For Alaric I think it was a very important relationship in  terms of energy.

LU: And the students responded.

SL: Yes. Alaric was very skilful. He knew what he was doing in terms of that balance in performance. Content is important, but in the space performance is all. I think he enjoyed that as something he was naturally inclined to.

He was very upfront at the start about his lack of teaching experience. I think he was freaked out at the start! I am glad we gave him that challenge because it produced great results

We had some of the work on display. We had a big exhibition of work which the sponsors toured; and a lot of it was work which Alaric had been involved in.

It didn't just end with the gallery. It went on in the school and we worked hard with the teachers.

LU: And it goes without saying, then, that the schools were pleased.

SL: Some of those schools we still work with. The sustainability of relationships with school is important. The only downside for us is that we haven't always had the funding for further specialists. We haven't had a residency since Alaric worked with us; but we demonstrate a very strong case for that kind of relationship and I think we shall have one again.

Initially we talked about a summer, then 6 months, then a year. He was very much part of the team. I think that's because he enjoyed it.

LU: Oh, yes. And I saw the change in him. Not phenomenal at first, but it was there. I think it gave him a sense of location, socially. Before, he had been up that hill, writing on his own - a situation I know well! And to have public recognition was very important to him.

Now may I just recap, to make sure I have everything. There was The Unspeakable Rooms, I was at that; Conversation in Colour, which I wasn't at... He gave a reading, didn't he? During A Century of Images, from  Waves... And then there was the schools work.

SL: Yes, that's right. One thing that is important to say - for Alaric, the evaluative element was very important. We'd sit down and have a cup of coffee and discuss what had happened. He was very professional and very keen to develop his skills. He was always keen to review and refine, which was very good from our point of view

LU: After he moved on from here, when he got the job at Dartington... It was a part-time job, but it seemed to me that increasingly he was always at Dartington. If you sent him at email, at any time, you got an answer within minutes, To what extent did he keep contact with you?

SL: We saw him from time to time in the gallery; and we met at some weekends. We have strong links with Dartington anyway; and there were tentative discussions about further contacts. We like to keep in contact with artists when we have once worked with them. So the contacts weren't on an education basis, but we were still in touch. The main contact was via email. I remember getting emails from him when he was in USA.

LU: The current show... Sandra Blow's. And that room downstairs on the link between Alaric and Sandra. I haven't spoken with Sandra yet. How did that room come about?

SL: I was discussing the education studio with Andrew Dalton, the Curatorial Officer. With this exhibition, it seemed to me that we had such a legacy of work, it seemed that we should do something more with this room than we have in the past.

We looked through the archives and found that we had the recording of the performance at the Millennium Gallery. As we were developing the exhibition, among the paintings being selected, we saw some of the Porthmeor paintings reappearing; and Sandra expressed a willingness to show the drawings which she had made in her collaboration with Alaric for his Waves...

So it really came through conversations and the desire not to miss an opportunity, given Sandra's willingness. I contacted Rosemary [Sumner], asking her if she would select texts for display, to gain a different perspective and for her to be involved. She made some suggestions and all of it was edited down.... Part of the driving force, for me, was to help to make Sandra's work more accessible.

We felt the room was an experience in itself, like an installation.